Email Correspondence on the Website www.torquetalk.nl

Between a Sceptic and a Christian about the Reality of God

 

Sent: Saturday, 25 July, 2009 22:53:05
Subject: Hey, there.
Sceptic:

So, what do you believe in and why?
And, please don't direct me to some website, at least paraphrase.

 

Sent:                        26 July 2009 23:26

Subject:                   FW: Hey, there.

Christian:

In short I believe God because He is a reality in my life.

The fact that you wrote this email is because of an unrest in your heart which might be best explained in the words of St Augustine: 'Thou hast created us for Thyself, and our heart is not quiet until it rests in Thee’

You might have noticed that I did not say in the first paragraph that I believe in God but that I believe God. I cannot believe that the Creator of heaven and earth would create it all and then leave us in a state of confusion, not telling us Who and what He is and why. So, there is the Bible called the Word of God and when I decided to trust the integrity of the God Creator, that He would not allow a book with false facts/statements or ½ false facts but has given us a Book with the full Truth about Him, so we could know Him, my life changed radically. I sought Him with all my heart and found the person of God:

One evening, sitting alone outside, I prayed and asked God why I could not see Him. Suddenly and unexpectedly I was filled with the presence of God, just felt Him so close to me as if Christ was sitting next to me and felt in my heart He was saying to me ‘I am too holy for you to see Me, but my presence will always be with you’ That evening changed my life. I was filled with a love that I never knew was possible and could not explain. To spend time in finding out more about Him through the Bible and books and talking to Him filled me with so much delight. I never wanted to lose His loving presence again. This happened in February 2000 and I now spend my life loving Him, serving Him as a plastic surgeon in many countries and particularly in West Africa serving people with free operations and telling people about the love of Christ. I work with Mercy Ships (www.mercyships.org) and PAACS (www.paacs.net)

You are so welcome to write to me

 

Sent: 27 July 2009 00:00
Subject: RE: Hey, there.

Sceptic:

Please note that I might use swear words. However, do not be offended and keep in your mind that I only use them for lack of a better word. Glad we could get an understanding.
Unrest? No, not really, I just want to see if you can fulfil your burden of proof. Seem pretty confident in the website you got yourself there.
So, is there an outside source that confirms that the bible is true? As you should know, a holy book is not evidence.
Not only that, but your personal experiences don't count for *@!*  for several reasons:
▼You could have misinterpreted the experience.
▼You could be a liar. I had  this happen once, I made a hoax claiming that if you do X, you will levitate and some poor chap told everyone that this technique and he got his ass off of the ground.
▼These it has been argued that religious experiences are little more than hallucinations aimed at fulfilling basic psychological desires of immortality, purpose, etc.Sigmund Freud, for example, considered God to be simply a psychological "illusion" created by the mind, instead of an actual existing entity. might be mis-firings of evolved mechanisms selected for very different reasons.
▼Different people have had, or believed to have had, religious experiences pointing to the existence of different religions. Not all of these can be correct, as you should know - truth does not contradict the truth.
If this is the best you can do, then how do you expect people to join your religion?

 

Sent:                        27 July 2009 14:45

Subject:                   Hey, there.

Christian:

Dear Person

I don’t expect anyone to join ‘my religion’ I do not have a religion, and am neither religious. Just love God in response to His love that overwhelmed me when I sought Him and still overwhelms me every day guiding my life.

Religion is dangerous and draws people onto false roads – Christ criticised religion fiercely. It leaves people with a false sense of security, and confuses others!

God will never allow humans to proof His existence; He is far beyond human proof – if you would read the Bible you will see it is about trusting the God Who created all, believing what He is telling you, trusting His integrity. God reveals Himself to all who seek Him with a sincere heart. He seldom reveals Himself to the spiritually dead person.

My website is to stimulate people to seek God. Arguments will never win the battle, only make people wonder what the real Truth is, stimulate them to seek further.

If you really want to know God, if you really want to know that He is as real as the universe is real, you will have to take the decision that you are serious in your quest for finding and  knowing Him. It depends on you, not on other people or arguments. So I would challenge you to take the New Testament of the Bible and read through it with an open mind, seeking the Truth and ask God to reveal Himself to you as you read it. His promise is Jeremiah 29:13 ‘You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart’ but also Acts 17:26-28 ‘He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us’.

Most important is a heart change rather than a head change to find Him and only God will do that but you have to ask Him in all sincerity. He will not play games. It is your decision, your choice, you are the one to act, to seek Him from your heart. If not, it is so unlikely that you will ever see Him.

Kind regards

 

Sent: 27 July 2009 15:04
Subject: RE: Hey, there.

Sceptic:

You do have your duty to save me from hell, do you not?
God will never allow humans to proof his existence? Goodbye, then.

Sent:                        27 July 2009 15:27

Subject:                   RE: Hey, there.

Christian:

I cannot save you from hell. No one can.  I can only guide you to seek and find God. Only God can save through Christ depending on your decision. It’s your choice and responsibility.

I have and will be praying for you.

 

Sent: 27 July 2009 22:02
Subject: RE: Hey, there.

Sceptic:

Yes you can save me from hell. By convincing be that it is real.

 

Sent:                        28 July 2009 21:44

Subject:                   RE: Hey, there.

Multiple emails from 28 July to 5 August 2009:

Sceptic: 28 July 21:44, 30 July 03:00, 1 August 16:42, 3 August 16:40, 4 August 13:18, 5 August 19:37

Christian: 30 July 18:10, 2 August 22:08, 3 August 21:11, 5 August 13:29, 5 August 20:23

 

Christian:

I will respond to your remarks below but when you stand before Him one day He might just tell you that Tertius Venter directed you to Him and your eternal destiny will be a  result of the decision you made and what you did with the knowledge that is all written in the Bible.

 

(Sceptic : Yes you can save me from hell. By convincing be that it is real.) Christian: To believe God will make you realize that hell is a reality.

Sceptic: There will be no believing in anything until you give me solid evidence.Christian: To believe God or not is your choice – it is about your decision to trust God and His integrity. The main theme of the Bible is about trusting and believing God – if you have solid evidence about something NO trust is needed. God wants you to trust Him. These are not my rules, they are His preconditions for knowing Him. Before He will reveal Himself as a reality to you. He wants you to trust Him first.

Sceptic:You are practically begging me to believe in him. Christian:  For your own sake and nobody else’s. Except Luke 15:7 ‘Count on it—there's more joy in heaven over one sinner's rescued life than over ninety-nine good people in no need of rescue.’ God rejoices over every single one that turn to Him. Sceptic:You made me facepalm right then.

Christian: The concept of hell is a Biblical concept and if you do not believe God or His Word, then nothing will make you believe that there is a place like hell, or know the reality of a place where one will be separated from God forever, a place of eternal torment

 Sceptic: Isn't God omnipresent? Christian: He is certainly omnipresent but just as we as human can turn our backs on Him now and be totally unaware of His presence so will we be in hell totally unaware of His presence but much more intense: no sense of Him and all that is good and beautiful, no sense of any love, kindness, honesty, friendship, none of His blessings (that even those who do not believe Him are still experiencing whilst on earth), but in hell none, just torment.

Sceptic: I don't think you quite understand what "omnipresent" means. Christian: Did you follow the argument clearly?

Sceptic: In other words, believe in us or be tortured forever. If that convinced you to believe in this religion, then you are a coward. Christian: No God’s love that overwhelmed me and still does every day is what convinces me. I want to know Him with all that I am and have – heaven is an additional bonus.

Sceptic: No. Eternal life is torture. It will never end. Without death there is no reason to do stuff, without death there is no purpose. Heaven is a poorly thought out bait for those who are infinitely greedy and are not willing to think things through and it robs you of any purpose. Sure the first hundred, maybe two hundred years would be fun, but what about the thousand years after than? And the million years after that? And the billion years after that? And an infinity after that? It will never end.  Christian:  Ever thought that it might be a spiritual existence where time and space is irrelevant?   Sceptic: Evidence for spirits, then. Christian: Never mentioned ‘spirits’Christian: We know so little about the human body, science, the universe, etc and the more knowledge becomes known the more we realize how little we know.Sceptic What we do know, is that we are powered by our brains and there is no evidence that supports spirits. Christian: But that does not mean that what we know is useless because we do not know everything. The infinite God created all and allow us to know and discover more and more and tells us in His Word a lot of, but not everything, what heaven is like (never that people become angels with wings, playing harps, etc, nowhere is this even suggested in the Bible - this is secular nonsense) Sceptic: Look up the word "secular", Christian: Secular: not religious, sacred or spiritual (Oxford dictionary) exactly what I meant, worldly. Christian: but heaven is a place of His uninterrupted presence; no sin that separates us from seeing and understanding Him, experiencing His full love, that we as Christians only have a taste of whilst on earth – much more is said in the Bible of what heaven is like. But of course it will only have meaning if you trust and believe Him. If not, it stays nonsense in one’s mind. 

Sceptic: A utopia is illogical. Your religion fails again. Christian: Where do you get this from, utopia?

Christian: The more I know Him, the more I love Him. I do not have to think about His wrath and the consequences anymore – I’m free of that. Unfortunately, and I wish it could be changed, but the alternative is eternal torment. God is infinitely big and holy and to call Him a liar is the most serious crime of man.

Sceptic: Think of this. You see a man on the street and all you have in your wallet are one hundred dollars? Would you give those to him? Give an honest answer. Christian: No I would not give him any money without a specific reason. Such as if he is obviously poor and in need Sceptic: What if there was a man standing next to him who told you that he would give you a one week vacation? Christian: You mean if I give the money to the poor man or the man offering the vacation? Sceptic: You would be more likely to give a hundred dollars to the poor man, Christian: why? Sceptic: but that is not your intent. You are essentially buying a vacation. Christian: I will not buy a vacation Sceptic: I said answer honestly.

Sceptic: What if the other man told you that he will give you a vacation if you donate the hundred dollars , but threaten to beat you to a bloody mass if you do not donate. You are in essence being robbed of one hundred dollars. Christian:  If I’m robbed by force I will not be in position to keep my money and will lose it. And the wrong of this situation on his conscience Sceptic: Give a moment to think about this and how it relates to your religion. Christian: I am a plastic surgeon and only work for 3 months of the year for money (and can work for 12 months of the year and get very rich!) Six months of the year I travel to different countries in Africa on my own expense, get no money for the work I do there and treat patients in need for free; burns, cleft lips, growths of the head and neck, etc. with different Christian organisations and with them, tell the people about the reality of God. Thus not only relieving their physical need but much more important their spiritual need and this is where we see the real change that takes place in lives. Three months of the year I spend on continental Europe doing ‘no pay’ non medical work telling people of the reality of God. Sceptic: WRONG. Read what I wrote again until the penny drops. Christian: Found it very difficult what you were trying to get at, trying to follow the story; the point is I’m spending my life serving people no matter what it is costing me or what I get out of it. This is how my life relates to what I believe. Thought that would some up whatever you were trying to ask.

Sceptic: Isn't God omnibenevolent? To allow eternal torment and be omnipotent, one can not be loving. Your god is illogical. Christian: If you read the Bible Sceptic: here we go again Christian: Absolutely Christian: you will see that the Bible describe God as a God of infinite love, but also infinite holiness. The more holy He is the less acceptable is sin to Him. And He said He will make a covenant with man. If man loves Him, obeys Him, He will bless him and his children because of His love for them. But if man keeps on sinning and especially telling Him that He is a liar and despise the love He shows to man through the suffering of His Son, God’s wrath will be upon man. Deuteronomy 7:9 ‘He will keep His covenant and show His constant love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and obey His commands, but He will not hesitate to punish those who hate Him’. God is a God of unbelievable love but because of His holiness unbelievable hate for sin and unbelievable wrath on sin. And He will keep His covenant with man. John 3:16-18 ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.’ Sceptic: I don't think you quite understand the meaning of omnibenevolent. Christian: This term is not what God is. God is love but not only love. We have to accept Him for who He is, not what we hope He should be or what some Christians like to tell people Who He is. Hebrews 10:31 ‘It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.’ God’s wrath against man is mentioned 686 times ( sorry mistake here, not that it would change the principle but just that the facts are; wrath mentioned 161 in OT and 29 times in the NT = 190 in the Bible)  in the Bible. Ephesians 5:6 ‘Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.’ In His love He sent His Son, the only One Who can free you from His wrath.

Sceptic: Which means he is evil, immoral, vindictive, petty and cruel. Christian: No He is God, sovereign, holy, righteous, loving and merciful with unbelievable grace Who gives man a free will to choose Him or continue to make Him out as a liar. (You can read on my website what evil is ‘Why Evil’ and how it fits in with God’s plan). Remember it’s man’s heart turned against God and not the other way, so do not ascribe man’s characteristics to God. Sin brings us under the wrath of God. Sceptic: Righteous, loving and merciful? Were you oblivious to the last few paragraphs? No loving and merciful god would ever allow such a construct as hell, or eternal life for that matter.   Christian: I can just repeat what I’ve said before, do not try to make God what He is not. He is a God of infinite love and holiness and if His holiness is breached a God of infinite wrath. That is what the Bible tells us and look at the suffering of this world: God said, promised, that His curses will be on all who disobey Him. The Bible speaks in Revelation about the ‘Wrath of the Lamb’ – the sacrificial lamb Who died in His love to free us from His wrath but His wrath that stays on all who would turn their backs on His love.  Sceptic: At this point I have no idea what you're trying to do. First you present your god as a loving and merciful one and the next moment you bring out the bits where he is evil and cruel. Christian: God is not just one thing and He will keep His word to punish sin, either through His Son that already carried our sin in His unbelievable love and freed us, or we will carry it ourselves. (unless one is without sin of course) Sceptic: If he is merciful, then why does he have to punish? Can you not see the contradiction? Christian: If an earthly father who loves his child punishes him because he repeatedly disobeys the father and actually will harm himself in the process., like a 5 year old that wants to run across the street and just wouldn’t listen. If in his love he punishes the child, is this contradictory to his love, his mercy? God guides us now by allowing hard times in our lives so we can learn to obey Him, well first of all find Him. But if we keep on being stubborn, and just will not listen, the car will run us over at the end of our lives and we will bear the consequences of our actions despite His love.

Sceptic: Excuse me, but INFINITE TORTURE. Where is the point in that. The earthy father might yell at his son, which by the way, is useless since children listen to calm and rational parents, but the earthly father won't send his kid to a furnace for an infinity. No matter how hard you try, it will always be completely obvious that your god is an immoral, maniacal puppeteer. Christian: Finding it difficult to see the relevant point in the argument; a father can be kind and loving but at the same time very cross and forced to discipline disobedience for the sake of the child. The same person loving and punishing. God's infinite holiness justifies infinite seperation from Him of those who despise His love and integrity. (added).  Christian: because one has make God out as a Liar by not believing Him. (1 John 5:9-10 ‘If we take human testimony at face value, how much more should we be reassured when God gives testimony as He does here, testifying concerning His Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God inwardly confirms God's testimony. Whoever refuses to believe in effect calls God a liar, refusing to believe God's own testimony regarding his Son’. So my prayer for you is that God will touch your heart as you seek Him, and that you will experience His amazing love deep inside you, His amazing peace and content in your heart as you know that all the wrongs of one’s live has been wiped away and one stand totally quilt less before God because you believe and accept His Son’s death in your place that frees you from eternal hell. Sceptic: Sure go ahead. I've had people praying for me for years now. Christian:  So this correspondence is because of people’s prayers? God stirring your heart? Sceptic I know this fallacy. I forgot it's name, though. Sceptic: His son's death? Haven't you read the bible? He was resurrected and went to heaven! Christian: Christ had to die for our sins and if you read the Old Testament you’ll understand why. He had to die, be dead as a blood offer for sin. And then was resurrected – the meaning of His resurrection: when we accept His offer to die in our place for our sin we are then resurrected with Him  into a new live here on earth, experiencing God’s tender love and presence and into heaven with Him when we die. Sceptic:  ... ok?  Christian: It is still your choice. And I ask God to touch your heart as you seek Him and bring that change that you will believe Him and see all that He is saying, and through that, see Him.

Sceptic: No, sir, it is not a choice. I can't just suddenly start believing in a god. That would just be pretending. Is it that hard for you to understand? No threats of hell or promises of eternal joy would make me suddenly start believing in a god. Christian: You are so right here. This is so true that you just can’t suddenly believe – it is impossible. (this is how you become a Muslim or a Hindu, etc is to accept their doctrines and rules and then you belong to that religion – or even a Christian on purely religious grounds). But please listen, this it is the most important of all; God need to touch you. I know that makes no sense but it is so true. If you turn to God and ask Him in absolute sincerity, wait for it and don’t be scared. He will touch you. Sceptic: I need evidence, and if you don't have that, you are the real loser. Christian: I found the Lover of my life, the Person of God and just as I cannot explain to anyone who has never been in love what it means and how it really feels I cannot explain this to you before you have experienced it. But it is there for you to find.

Sceptic: If you would have used this kind of begging in a scientific field you would have been kicked out the back door with the goodbyes of laughter and ridicule. Christian: I have often spoken at scientific meetings about my medical work in Africa and at the same time made it clear that God is my motivation and weave into the talk the reality of God. One does have to do it in a very honest but clever way. so that people who can only think scientifically, (and not spiritually),  will keep on listening and experience something of the truth and love of God. I have only had positive feedback on my presentations. If you bring the Truth in gentleness, honesty, love and humbleness it is amazing what it does to people. Sceptic: What are you talking about? I called you out on your begging me to believe in your deity. Christian:I’m not begging you to believe in any deity, please. I demonstrated that there are more than one way to tell people about the realty of God and His love (added), also in scientific meetings. One adjust the approach to the circumstances, try to speak in a language that people would understand. Sceptic: I do not seek God, I seek the truth. Christian: John 14:6 ‘Jesus answered, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Sceptic: So far, the evidence clearly shows that the truth contradicts your beliefs. Christian: God is the only Truth and I believe Him – I see no contradiction.

Sceptic: Because you do not seek the truth. You just want to have your comforting beliefs, and outside your bubble of delusion you see nothing. Denial and ignorance is what fuels your faith. Denial and ignorance is faith. Christian: The word faith means ‘absolute trust’ (Oxford dictionary) Faith what the Bible talks about is an absolute trust of God – the basis for any friendship.

Sceptic: Another one who cherry picked a definition. Let me tell you the other meanings, not just the one you found most suitable.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: Christian: keeping faith with one's supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. The body of dogma of a religion: Christian: eg the Muslim faith.

6. A set of principles or beliefs." ~ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

Christian: That is why I specified ‘ faith that Bible talks about’ as there are many meanings to the word ‘faith’ You have to know the Bible (and if you have knowledge of the original Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in so much better) to understand which meaning is applicable to understand that it means ‘absolute trust’ . (trusting acceptance of God's will 4.) (This is discussed at great length on my website ‘Why Faith’ as it is so vitally important to understand this concept that separates Christianity form all worldly faiths.)

Christian: Just a word on the proof of God.

1. One can see proof of God’s existence in creation. Romans 1:20 ‘For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse’

Sceptic: No, "creation" is the result of a natural process. Christian: The natural process created by God. He is a very logical God – just look at maths and science, the constant laws and how everything fits together and how it all make sense when we have enough knowledge to understand it. He is just amazing. Sceptic: Oh, so now he created the process. And what evidence do you have for that? And don't quote the bible, holy books are not evidence. Christian: ‘If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.’ - Lord Kelvin. Famous British Scientist. (if you had science at school you would know his name)   Michael Heller agrees with Einstein: 'It seems obvious that science just reads the mind of God' Michael Heller. Polish mathematical physicist and winner of the 2002 and 2008 Templeton Prizes. ‘Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind’. Albert Einstein Sceptic Can you do anything apart from hell threats, cherry picking and quote mining? Einstein was a well known pantheist. Now, why would he say something that supported your religion? Because you quote mined him. At this point I have lost all remaining respect for you and dare to boldly call you a *@!*. Go read this article  http://pulltheplugonignorance.com/category/quote-mining/ Christian: Einstein, as far as known, sadly never found Christ even to his deathbed, and the same with the computer metaphor (below), the point that I made was that He could not, in studying science, deny the existence of God (and I was not arguing that he was Christian!).  But, despite knowing that there must be a God, He did not trust the Being, the Creator, to give humankind the knowledge to know Him and why He created the world – knowledge that is written in His Word but unfortunately can be read and not understood unless guided by God Himself once man has turned to Him and His heart and eyes opened. I Corinthians 1 18-21 ‘The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hell-bent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written,  I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head,  I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots. So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in His wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust Him into the way of salvation.’ I wish there was another way of explaining this to you. But it is after all about God and His Word. I say again we cannot change God even if we would like to. I have to be absolutely honest in what is known about God – revealed in His Word and over the centuries confirmed in the hearts of men who knew Him.

Sceptic: Do not attempt to justify your quote mine, doing so will only make things worse.

2. Have proof in your heart of His existence when you accept Him and His Spirit fills you   Christian: 2 Corinthians 1:22 ‘set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come’. -  

Sceptic: Yet strangely this same feeling can be felt in lots of other places. I for one, feel it when I listen to truly great music. Christian: My love for my wife is a feeling but I tell you, as true as anything. Because you can’t see my feelings for my wife, does my love for her not have deep meaning or not really true? We are not just matter, we have emotions and deep feelings which makes us human. To deny heart feelings as a reality would be very sad, if it is just feelings with no significance or long term meaning.

Sceptic:  Feelings... Haven't had those. It is the price you pay for logic and reason. And I regret nothing. Christian: I’m sure you’ve had feelings for someone in your life at some stage? Sceptic: Statistically probable.

Christian: But it cannot make sense to prove God, the Creator of everything, by His own creation. He is far bigger and beyond it. It is like designing a computer and then expect of the computer to prove who  designed him – a computer can prove many things through mathematical calculations but not who designed him – if he was human he would only known that he was designed but can’t prove his designer

Sceptic: My computer is made by Microsoft, who's owner is Bill Gates.

 

Wasn't that easy? Christian: Did your computer work that out? No, the computer was designed by Bill Gates and then manufactured. The computer cannot proof the existence of Bill Gates. That is the point. You as a third party have to interfere – you are missing the point.  

Sceptic: Red herring fallacy. We were talking about design.

Sceptic: And we tell that things are "designed" because we know that they are manufactured by us and we have no natural phenomena to explain their existence.

Christian: You still don’t get it? If I say my wife feels as far as the sun from me. It means she feels very far. That is the point. The point is not that if I get too close to her I will burn. Sorry, can’t explain more clearly the relevance in the argument of trying to prove God.

Christian: Dear friend I am glad you are asking all these questions and some are challenging but one can run around in circles for a long time, and that can also be good but at the end it is a hearts decision that you have to make. A hearts decision to believe and trust God and a new world will open up to you as He will reveal Himself to you in the milieu of mutual trust. I am not forgetting you in my quiet times with God.

Sceptic I prefer to think with my brain and not my gut. And you should too. Christian:  I think I can claim that I use my brain and I do not want to boast but just proof my point: 2 years of philosophy and studies in logical argumentation at university, Sceptic: lol yeah. Christian: 6 years medical school, 5 years post graduate studies which includes two bachelor’s degrees and two master degrees, a few international scientific publications and many presentation (scientific talks) at national and international congresses. The point is the more you study God and the Bible, the more sense it makes. It only makes no sense when you look at it superficially with pre conceived ideas. ‘’Just as the tiniest of coins close to the eye can blot out the sun so can ‘solid’ arguments close to the heart blot out the Creator of the universe and blind our hearts to see Him’. MCMLV

I keep you in my prayers for a change of heart. The most wonderful moment in the life of man is that moment when God touches His heart. I pray this for you.

Sceptic: Need I say more? Christian: No, because that is where the change need to be. Not because of what you want, or think it should be or because you want to beat the drum but because that is what God wants, Who He is, a heart that will trust Him into a personal relationship. You see, if God wanted Himself to be proved (prove doesn’t need trust) and only then want people to believe in Him He would have made it that way. He didn’t, He chose that people would trust Him because He is a Person.  And only then will He reveal Himself to that person. When Paul, who was called Saul before He came to know Christ, refused to believe God’s plan of salvation Christ said to him in Acts 26:14 ‘'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' The point that I am making: do not kick against the goads, it will only hurt yourself, nobody else.

Sceptic: Proof only applies to mathematics. You have no idea what you are talking about. Christian: You want proof of God? Mathematically?  Proof: 1. evidence of establishing a fact or the truth of a statement 2. Series of stages in a resolution of a mathematical or philosophical problem, etc. Oxford dictionary Sceptic: Were you not paying attention? I said that "proof" only applies to mathematics, nowhere else. Pay attention or don't reply. Christian: My English is not good enough to argue with the Oxford dictionary that I quoted. Sceptic: So you turn the lack of evidence into evidence. I'm sorry, but this only results in laughter and ridicule. Christian: I am not trying to give you evidence of anything and never have. You are digging for evidence. I am trying to get you to see that there is another way to look at the world and God, trying  to get your thinking out of a rigid  box – sorry, does not want to sound harsh, but there are more than hard facts and physical evidence in this world. See below.

Sceptic:  Yeah. Another way. Like... BELIEF WITHOUT REASON OR EVIDENCE.

Christian: May you have the guts to often sit still late at night, alone, without a sound that can distract you, in the deep quiet of the night and with sincerity ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If you really seek Him in honesty, and not for reasons only to prove Him, and you persist because you want to know your Creator and why you where created, you will find Him. Sceptic: This will not work. And when it fails you will claim that I was not sincere enough. Christian: That’s why it is a challenge and needs guts but unfortunately, and you are so right, if you are not sincere in looking for God to find Him for His sake, it will be a waste of time. Sceptic: You fill me with disgust. I have never talked with anyone who is so deluded in their beliefs. Christian: Why do I spend so much time trying to answer your questions, despite your sometimes insulting remarks? I do not even know your name. What is it to me what you believe, a total stranger? Two reasons: 1. So often my heart gets filled and exited about with something and then I read about it in the Bible to only, then, fully understand it, like Matthew 13:44 (The Message)  44 "God's kingdom is like a treasure hidden in a field for years and ...  found .... The finder is ecstatic—what a find!—and proceeds to sell everything he owns to raise money and buy that field.” I found that treasure and have a passion to tell people about it. (long before I knew this verse). 2. When you live close to God, He imparts His heart unto you – this passion to tell people about Him is because of God’s love for each of us. 2 Peter 3:9 ‘He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance’. I live my life sharing this treasure that I found – the meaning of life. (and death). Sceptic: Insulting may be, but rightly deserved. Christian: Let’s call this the ‘Trio of the Scorching Sun’ as this is the 3^rd time you just do not see the relevance of the statement. In any logical argument or statement you have to see the relevance of the analogy, metaphor, example used, etc and not grab onto what it is not meant to be in that situation. The point here was not the reason why you were insulting me, the point here  is that I am still spending a lot of time corresponding with you despite your insulting remarks – this is an important difference.  It hampers progress so much in any argument if one keeps on grabbing what is not relevant, in that specific context. (even if it is true that the sun will burn me if I get to close to the it), Christian: I’m sorry that I can’t tell you what you want to hear – I can only tell you what I know about God, what I’ve learned about Him through His Word and through my relationship in experiencing Him over the last years. It is not a religion it’s a relationship. Sceptic: So in fact you know nothing. Then it is a relationship with a non-existing entity, as you to this point have not demonstrated it's existence. Christian: You believe there is no God (until proven) – which has not happened since the dawn of man. And I believe there is a God. So we both believe something. Sceptic: Straw-man argument, you misrepresented my position. I will reject your claim of the existence of a deity, I will reject your claim that that deity is of your religion, and I will reject your claim that this deity has done X and has Y properties until you bring fourth sufficent evidence or convince me through logical deduction. Fallacies will not be tolerated. I do not "believe in something". Atheism is the lack of a belief. The belief of god in this case. Theism means belief in a god. A stands for anti. Therefore atheism means lack of a belief in a god. Christian: Do you believe there is no God?  Would your answer not be ‘Yes I believe there is no God’? Christian: A good start. You cannot proof there is no God. Sceptic: And I also cannot prove that there are no unicorns. You cannot prove a negatice. Christian: I cannot proof that there is a God. Sceptic Then stop talking to me, as the conversation is useless. Christian: We are still equal. If we die and you are right, we are both just dead. Still on equal footing. If I am right I will spend eternity in God’s presence. But the real difference is my delightful experience of a wonderful loving Being everyday that guides my life, gives me a sense of deep meaning in all I do now. You might think this is a delusion but millions of  people (still not evidence but a fact) today find this inner feeling, inner knowing a reality in their lives. And like 10 of Christ disciples who were killed because of this inner conviction that was so strong that they would not give it up despite threads of, and actual death, so thousands of Christians are still dying every year today because they are so convinced about what they know and see.  Matthew 7:13- “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.) Sceptic Oh *!*, not this tired argument again.  Pascal's Wager has been refuted centuries ago. You using it just shows how desperate you are. Christian: Nothing to do with ‘gambling’, or 'taking your chances- Pascal's Wager-  but about the one who will persist in his seeking until he finds the real truth. Christian: I am writing a book about the multiple amazing things that God has been and is doing in my life since I accepted His Truth. Sceptic Which doesn't count for *@!*, as your personal experiences will not convince anyone. Christian: The Bible is also about the stories of people, how God acted in their lives, and through that we know so much more about Him, also today  He acts in peoples’ lives and through that we continue to know more of Him. Christian: My experience that one evening with God, that I mentioned earlier, was followed up by a clear call from God (lots of detail of exactly how God calls a person and talks to him). I said to God that I will give up my private plastic surgical practice at any time as long as His loving presence stays with me – I did not know where the money would come from to put my children through university and to care for my wife and to fly where He wants me. (barely paid off my study loans) I started making plans to close my practice and serve God fulltime and then received a letter out of the blue from a cosmetic surgery private company in a different country who asked me to work for them on the basis of short visits multiple times a year. For the last few years I work 8-10 days x 10 per year  with them and that gives me more than enough money to serve God 9 months of the year in many different countries and fly between 200 000 and 300 000 km per year. This is how God manifests Himself when you trust Him. This is just one of many, many things that are happening daily in my life in serving, knowing and loving Him.

Christian: Friend, I am now going to say things you will probably not like, things that might be even less acceptable to you than what I’ve already said, for you to think about and consider if you are serious. I say this because of what I read in the Bible and see in life. The Bible was written by more than forty authors over sixteen centuries. They came from four different cultures and wrote in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) on three continents. Some of the authors were rabbis, kings, prophets, a tax collector, a doctor, philosophers, fishermen, and many more. Sceptic: And you believe it to be true.  Christian: There is much more evidence for these facts than that people like Alexander the Great or Nero were actual people that lived and what they have done in their lives if you would bother to investigate this instead of just writing it off.  Christian: One would expect a clash of culture, thought, philosophy and belief; however, there is absolute harmony with a clear message of how God interact with people, and what His will is for the human race and each individual. A golden line running from the first book, Genesis to the last book, Revelation, namely salvation through Christ the most important but also many other concepts like ‘spiritual blindness’. No other book in the history of the world has sold so many copies – still the top seller in the world. And for no other Book ever written has so many people died. Why? Because it is about the Truth of life itself. A Truth (God) that touches and changes people's hearts. The Bible is not about rules and regulations but about the truths of life and can only be interpreted and understood by God’s revelation to the individual who seeks Him. “God’s Word is alive with meaning and when you read it something will happen to you." Selwyn Hughes “The word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet” Hebrew 4:12

One of the many clear concepts that runs through the Bible is the following: Like struggling with a mathematical problem and one just can’t see the solution until something ‘clicks’ and there it is as clear as daylight! Hope you have done maths and understand what I’m talking about. The Bible talks about something that needs to happen: ears and eyes need to be opened, veil taken away, scales need to fall from one’s eyes, must be reborn – all the same concept; Some change needs to take place in order for one’s spiritual eyes to open. The shocking  thing is that only God will do that. This deep resistance that you feel/felt to accept God as a Person to trust can only be overcome by Him – not by you.  That’s is why I’ve been saying so often to you and praying that God will touch you, change your heart – the Bible talks about circumcision of the heart. It can also be a very painful process like birth. There is nothing simple and easy about true Christianity. Right through the Bible this important fact is spoken about and here are some references

Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Isaiah 42:20 You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing."

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear this, ....., who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

1.Acts 9:18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized (although this was physical it had spiritual meaning and he was baptized after persecuting the church.)

Romans 2:29 and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God

Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

When you turn to God in sincerity the veil is taken away.

 I keep you in my prayers

Sent: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009 14:11:37
Subject: RE: Hey, there.

Sceptic:I've basically refuted every "argument" you put together there. How about you try again.
Do you accept free choice?

 

Sent: 05 August 2009 23:29

Subject: RE: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)

Sent: 05 August 2009 22:10
Subject: RE: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)

Subject: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:47:41 +0200

Christian:

Dear Sir

I knew you would not like what I’ve had to say – did not quite expect such a vile reaction though. Sceptic: Again I facepalm. I was responding logically Christian: with swear words – to me that’s veil  Sceptic: and requesting evidence, while your begged me to believe you Christian: I’ve NEVER begged you to believe Sceptic: and brought up threats of hell Christian: You brought the subject of hell into the discussion Sceptic: and vague promises of utopia Christian: You started with ‘utopia’ which has nothing to do with the afterlife – a whole subject on its own. Christian But what I’ve said was in all honesty,  what the Bible teaches and for man to accept or reject. Sceptic I cannot suddenly choose to believe, Christian: as I’ve said before Sceptic: which is why you have to convince me that you are right, Christian: I do not have to convince you but I would be so very happy the day that when the unexplainable change happens  Sceptic: assuming that you are right in the first place. Christian: Free choice? Who told you that? You are very limited in what you can choose in life: your race, your sex, country born in, parents , IQ, health, day of death, etc. Sceptic: health = cutting oneself, sex change operation, parents = adoption, day of death = suicide.  Christian:  Sorry but this is missing the point so badly! Only within these limitations, that you have NO control over, are there some freedom to choose.

Christian: Only by grace can you choose God. When is pleases God He overcomes man’s resistance in those who seek Him.

I have painstakingly written a lot to you hoping that some of your questions might be answered. I just hope you will read it often with an open mind, meditate and reflect on it. If you outright reject it I can guarantee you a lifelong search with a hollow empty end.

Sceptic: What you are basically saying is that "My life is so good and awesome (Christian: Never!!!) because I believe in god and yours is empty and hollow (Christian: that I do not know)  Sceptic: and you will die alone and be sent to hell". You are making assumptions about my life. Christian: You have made assumptions about my life. My life is much harder since God came into my life. I have no permanent place where I live, seldom sleep more than 2-3 weeks in the same bed throughout the year, and  am without my family, whom I love dearly, more than 9 months of the year. Why do I do this? Because of an overwhelming love in my heart and a Presence that I lose when I turn my back on my call. Doesn’t make sense to you, I'm sure. But a Presence, a Love, meaning, direction that I will change for nothing in this world. A Call from God in my life which I hope that I can one day explain to you – witnessing and circumstantial evidence as will be written in my book.  Sceptic And at which point did we begin talking about who's life is better? I asked you for evidence, you said you have none, Christian: not physical or mathematical but like any court of law would accept, circumstantial evidence and through witnesses. But you refuse to listen to my witnessing or the Bible’s or any other Christian’s. Or to examine the circumstantial evidence about the historical truths of the Bible, which will take a lot of effort and research on your part but the evidence is there and is exactly what the guy did in the book I suggested to you. Sceptic: I told you to stop talking to me or use logical deduction. You have done what? Fallacies, false dichotomies, ad hominems etc etc

Christian: It is about your life, nobody else’s

You have taught me a lot of how people think and argue in their search and I am thankful for that. Sceptic: I do what all rational people do in search for truth. Christian: If nobody has ever found the truth through all the ages, why would you bother to try and find it. It probably doesn’t exist, can’t be so difficult if it is there or maybe, it is that one simply doesn’t want to see or can’t see what is in front of you. 

Christian: I hope that some of what I’ve said will kindle serious thought on your side and that you will not only stare at some of the totally ‘unacceptable’ things I’ve said but reflect on it as a whole, and open your mind to think outside the rigidity that often binds people.

Sceptic: If you really think that your deity answers prayers, then pray to your deity that he reveals himself. Christian: Since I’ve  started trusting Him, He does reveal Himself to me all the time, that is why I am so convinced about all this.  Sceptic: Not tomorrow. Not after I die. Now. I will not accept any "See, I told you.". Since, as you yourself said, I am skeptical, your deity will not answer prayers. And if you can not even do that, then this discussion is over. Christian: The very consistent ‘ golden thread’ throughout the whole of the Bible which I cannot stress enough: Turn to Me and I will turn to you. If you do not trust Him you will not see a thing about Him. That’s’ His precondition. He wants us to trust His integrity, Who He is. And a whole new world will open up. Like someone who knows nothing about radio waves, doesn’t know what a radio is, and then explained to him what it is, switches it on and a whole new world unfolds.

You are always welcome to write to me.

Kind regards

 

A book you might like to read. A Sceptic’s Search for God: Convincing Evidence for His Existence

by Ralph O. Muncaster  Available through Amazon. An engineer by profession who hated the lies he heard in Sunday school so much. Over the years he became an atheist, then was driven to make it his life’s object to proof that there is no God.

 And below my latest newsletter that I sent out as a way of showing you  something of a world that you might not appreciate so often. A lot, I’m sure, you can criticize, as criticism is easy and cheap, but that’s not the idea.

 

SEE NEWSLETTER AFTER THE END OF THE CORRESPONDENCE.

Sent: 06 August 2009 01:02
Subject: RE: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)

Sceptic: And you're inconsistent. Again, for the umpteenth time, I ask. Do you have evidence for your deity?

 

Sent:                        07 August 2009 01:16

Subject:                   RE: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)

Christian

Dear Sir

What is important and consistent though in our correspondence is that you will not find evidence for God unless you trust Him and turn to Him. The reason for me being so consistent about this is that when I first came to Christ in 2000, new in my trust and relationship to God and little knowledge of the Bible, I found that in every situation where I would trust Him, I would see Him, He would reveal Himself, which made me just trust Him more. And then, as I came to know the Bible better I discovered that it is an absolute and essential Biblical principle throughout the Bible.  The Person of God wants you as person to trust Him. To get stuck at this point and not allowing yourself past this crucial prerequisite will only lead to frustration in your search of the truth.

I really ask my Abba Father for you to allow Him to touch you.

The Greek present imperatives are used in verse 7 indicating constant asking, seeking, knocking (Greek the original language that the New Testament was written in)

Matthew 7:7-14 (NIV) 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.  13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it”.

Nothing to do with ‘gambling’, or 'taking your chances' but about the one who will persist in his seeking until he finds the real truth.

Sent: 07 August 2009 03:30
Subject: RE: Grace (& Newsletter 26 July 2009)

Skeptic: I have to believe in something to trust it, which beats the whole purpose.
And please stop talking to me as I see you have nothing better than "Oh, please, trust god and you will see the light."

 

Sent:                        10 August 2009 00:47

Subject:                   Grace

Christian: Sir this is such a fundamental question. How can you trust and believe Someone that you don’t even know if He exists.

If you are absolutely sure that He does not exist then, I suppose, your search for the truth is over. But if there is a chance that He might exist then the search is on and based on the premise of the possibility that He does exist. So what would make one think that He might exist? (not proof but that He might exist) Three things 1. Circumstantial evidence 2 Witnesses. (1&2 that all courts of law in western countries would convict people without hard physical evidence) 3. An unexplainable knowing/seeking from inside of us that finds it difficult to accept that there is just nothing, but that there must be more, a deeper truth to life. Circumstantial; the statistical almost impossibility that the whole of the universe and particularly the step from inorganic material to organic to life, developed purely by chance with no guidance whatsoever, from the Big Bang to today. Do you have any idea what the statistical changes were that the universe came to what it is purely by chance, especially life? And questions like why would millions of years develop my brain to see, smell and perceive a rose as beautiful? The archaeological, linguistic, historical circumstantial evidence of the authority of the Bible. These evidences are so strong and available in  libraries, universities and archaeological research centres worldwide if one would start reading about it – non-Biblical evidence.

Witnesses: as given in the Bible throughout the 4000 year history of the Bible and witnesses given and written up by Christian experiences over the centuries up to today (if one would go through the trouble of finding these books which are available everywhere ie Amazon.com. christianbooks.com, etc) Also God’s own testimony ‘Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.’ 1 John 5:10

So now, what would one do with this possibility that there might be a God and that He is the God of the Bible but I can only experience Him when I trust Him?

Let me use an analogy. (with the shortcomings of any analogy) Someone would like to do a bungee jump. His aim, reason for wanting to do it might be to show that he can overcome his emotions or his aim might just want to be able be to say  ‘Yes I did it!’ or just to be  adventuress and wants to experience the adrenalin rush. Whatever the goal is, if he wants to achieve his goal, he will have to get to a point where he will have to trust his life to someone he has never met before, know nothing about this person, his personality or integrity, but has to decide to trust him with his life – to fix the harness securely, that this person would know that the length of the rope is safe, the depth of the ravine, etc. So on what grounds would he trust this total stranger?  1. circumstantial evidence - all looks secure and fine, no one has been injured or died there before and 2. witnesses - people who has done the jump before that he can talk to.

And then decide OK he’s going to ‘risk’ it because he’s got a goal, something he wants to achieve.  Very unlikely for anybody under these circumstances to insist to see the exact mathematical and physical calculations and proof; detail of the length of the elastic rope, the strength, elasticity of the rope, see the mathematical calculation proofing that his body’s weight will not extend the rope beyond its safe point, the depth of the ravine, etc etc.

To actually jump he would take a ‘risk’, ‘a step into the unknown’, a ‘step of faith’ (trusting this unknown person with his life), doing something very unfamiliar to him. Trust someone he does not know but on the ground of what he’s seen and heard, if he would have gone through the effort of finding out beforehand, that it is a safe place to bungee jump, which most people would do before you would do a specific jump.

To find God you have to take that ‘risk into the unknown’, ‘step of trust or faith’ if you will (trusting the Unknown Person, even if there is a lot of doubt in your mind, that’s OK), because of your aim to find Him/the Truth. Just as the bungee jumper would or many other life situations like when you get into a aeroplane trusting the pilot – have faith (absolute trust) in him, in his integrity (circumstances and witnesses that it is a good airline with good pilots) without actually seeing the pilot.

Only you can decide if you would dare to step forward and jump – to take the step of trust.

Again, I do keep asking my God for you to allow Him.

 

 

 Subject: FW: Grace
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 14:24:38 +0200

Christian:

Dear Sir

     1. Evidence/logical deduction: I am surprised and little frustrated that there are still people today in the 21^st century that simply can’t think outside a rigid box. It seems like you have nurtured these  ideas into your life so much, probably over a long period of time, that the weight of these fixed ideas are so  heavy that you just can’t get out underneath it. You will not find a rose on a apple tree – you are searching in the wrong place. Six thousand years and not a single man has found it where you are looking, neither will you. Release your brain and expand your search. Sceptic: You can't convince me that your god is true by logic.

      2. Christian: I hope you will reflect on all I’ve written to you, really think about it. Not a single sentence has been written without careful thought and honest conviction in my heart. Sceptic Your honest conviction is worth precisely *@!*. You know what' not worth precisely *"!*? Logic and evidence. I see you have neither.

     3. Christian: May you have the guts to free yourself from the preconceived ideas that seems to  hold you captive. Dare to take a step outside your comfort zone. Sceptic: Take your own advice. Drop your emotions and search for the truth, you spineless maggot.

Christian: It is your responsibility what you do with the knowledge that you now have. Only you can decide what to do with it knowing it is all available to you and leaves you without an excuse. Sceptic: Another hell threat? Listen, kid, if you want me or any other rational and thinking person to take you seriously, you don't mention your personal convictions, your hopes and your wishes, nor try to scare us into believing in your dogmas. Also, what I am doing is exactly thinking outside the box. I do not give in to hell threats, I do not take your personal emotions for account as the people did six thousand years ago and to this very day. Not only I do that, but more and more people are winning the battle against your cancerous beliefs. If you have any evidence or logical arguments you would like to throw at me, be my guest, but right now I grade your arguing skills with a big *@!* and ask you if you were me, would you be convinced?
Sceptic: Evidence/logical deduction or see image below.

 

 

 

Sent: 17 August 2009 09:10
Subject: RE: Grace

Christian:

Dear Sir

How I wish I could put it differently. Your response only confirms what I’m saying.

And the abusive remarks underlines your frustration and you’ll be frustrated till the end of your life unless you free yourself from your rigid ideas.

Sceptic: That’s what you get for making assumptions about your opponent. I could do the same thing, eh? I could guess that you are backed in the corner because you have no evidence or logic.

Christian:

I really feel for you and I mean it. But it remains your choice. It is between you (and nobody else) and God, your Creator. (do not confuse God/Christianity with what people have made of the church/religion – i.e. do not look at people and judge God!)

Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), British philosopher and atheist, said that if he had it wrong that there was no God and would one day (and that was in 1970) stand before God, he would say to God ‘Not enough evidence, God. There was not enough evidence that You existed’, putting the blame for being lost on God.  Romans 1: 19-20 'since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.'

It is not that we cannot believe, as Bertrand Russell alleged because there is not enough evidence, but that we will not believe because we know that if we do believe, it will have far reaching implications for our lives. That is why the idea of taking that first step scares us.

A former atheist, Lee Strobel, said in his book The Case of Faith page 226 ‘I had a lot of motivation to find fault with Christianity when I was an atheist. I knew that my …. self obsessed lifestyle would have to change if I ever became a follower of Jesus and I wasn’t sure I want to let go of that. After all, that was all I knew. Consequently, instead of trying to find the truth, I found myself attempting to fend off the truth with fabricated doubts and contrived objections.’

I might not have convinced you about the reality of God (which I never intended to do by physical evidence/logic deductions, just responded to your questions and remarks showing you that it is necessary to  think differently about God if you want to find the Truth), but you have certainly convinced me that I do not envy the life of a sceptic’s perplexities, distrust, negative feelings, negative reactions and frustrations. (John 8:32)

Please think very carefully and often about all I’ve written to you over the last weeks, also the answer above in the light of all that has been said before.

I wish I could have been less harsh as I had been at times in our correspondence and now again but I have to be clear in my responses to your remarks.

II Thessalonians 3:5

Acts 3:19-20

 

Sceptic:*@!*

Subject: RE: Grace
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:31:12 +0200

Christian:

I can’t be backed in a corner as I have not been defending anything – only responded to every single one of your questions and remarks that I thought needed a response. You came with the premise that the only way one can know God (that there is a God) is by evidence /logical deduction which is simply not true. (I suppose by evidence you mean physical evidence as you discard all circumstantial/witness evidence) I’ve just been trying, through all the many things I’ve written to you, for you to see that your premise is wrong and that you have to broaden your thoughts.

to you over the last weeks, also the answer above in the light of all that has been said before.

I wish I could have been less harsh as I had been at times in our correspondence and now again but I have to be clear in my responses to your remarks.

II Thessalonians 3:5

Acts 3:19-20

 

Sceptic:: *@!*

Subject: RE: Grace
Date: 31 Aug 2009 22:02

Christian:

I was well aware that by referring to these particular sections in God’s Word (II Thessalonians 3:5, Acts 3:19-20) could be offensive but had to get to the core of your question. I realized that the end of our correspondence might have been in sight.

I think it is so important to realize that even if you  would find the evidence/logical deduction that you are looking for, it would have been highly unlikely that one would do a sudden 180 degree turn and become a God follower. One’s resisting of Him throughout one’s life can be so strong and it is not physical evidence/logical deduction that will change one’s thinking but only a change of heart. Knowledge/evidence will not bring one to God but a desire from one’s heart to find Him. Luke 16: 25-31

Hosea 6:3 ‘ Let us press on to know Him. He will respond to us as surely as the arrival of dawn  or the coming of rains in early spring.’

 

Sent:                        01 September 2009 00:07

Subject:                   RE: Grace

 

Sceptic: *@!*

 

 End of email correspondence

 

 

 

 

Christ said:

Luke 12:50-52 (The Message)

49-53 "I've come to start a fire on this earth—how I wish it were blazing right now! I've come to change everything, turn everything rightside up - how I long for it to be finished! Do you think I came to smooth things over and make everything nice? Not so. I've come to disrupt and confront! From now on, when you find five in a house, it will be-  

   Three against two,

      and two against three;

   Father against son,

      and son against father;

   Mother against daughter,

      and daughter against mother;

   Mother-in-law against bride,

      and bride against mother-in-law."

But if we find Him, He promises:

John 8:36 (NIV)

“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed”

God is Love

Zephaniah 3:17 (NIV)
"The LORD your God is with you, He is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."

 

 

THE NEWSLETTER

 

Sent: 26 July 2009 14:13
Subject: Spiritual Poverty

 Dear Friends

Through aid to the poorer nations on our planet there are 30 million more children in schools today than would have been if no helping hands were extended to these countries. (CNN)

Still, 55 000 people die every day, mainly children, from totally preventable causes such as hunger, lack of clean water, lack of vaccination, malaria, tuberculosis and woman dying during child birth. (WHO)

The Bill and Belinda Gates Foundation  states that mainly through vaccination (measles, etc) and bed nets (preventing malaria) it costs $ 5000 to save a life. With the record amount  of  US $ 130 million paid  for the soccer star Christiano Ronaldo  by Real Madrid  of Spain to Manchester United, 26 000 lives could have been saved (CNN)

To me something sounds wrong. ‘It was like living a lie’ - words from Osel Hita Torres, the boy identified by the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of a Tibetan spiritual leader, on his decision to abandon the Buddhist order. (Time Magazine June 09) What is the Truth? Can you have more than one true love in your life? Can you switch from one truth to another or is there just one Truth that can stand all tests? Or do we have to live a lie, senseless acts when much can be done. Where then is the Truth?

Luke 20:17 (ESV) But He looked directly at them and said, "What then is this that is written: "'The Stone that the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone'?

 I am in the beautiful north west of Cameroon at the moment, a 7 hour taxi drive from the airport in Douala, working with PAACS (www.paacs.net) at Mbingo Baptist Hospital. It is the rainy season now and once or twice a day the land is soaked with torrential downpours. Always wonderful for a child born and bred in  the Karoo in the south east of South Africa – a very dry area. Rain always excites me!  My 3^rd visit with PAACS in Cameroon still trying to find my exact role and how to maximize my service to the residents (surgeons in training – 6 based at this hospital). They are being trained to qualify and register as general surgeons but due to a lack of specialists in Africa they are in the true sense ‘general’ surgeons and need to be able to deal with many situations outside the current view of general surgical expertise. My role is the teaching of the principles of plastic and reconstructive surgery i.e. skin grafts, useful practical skin and muscle flaps for wound cover, cleft lip and palate, burns, etc  – to see what their needs are and to keep on expanding on ideas and service with every visit. 

Every time I come to Cameroon I am totally amazed to see how much is done with so little. Money is just so relative. The West and the world are caught in the ‘credit crunch’ but I often feel we, from the developed world, just have no idea.

The 270 bed hospital has 4 operating rooms (and soon 6). No ventilator in the hospital, no ECG machine in the OR, no ICU or high care facility, no laboratory that can do wound cultures and still a massive number of surgeries are done very successfully.

Treatment is not free and patients have to pay 100 000 - 150 000 Cameroonian Francs (US $ 200-250) per operation. Many simply can’t afford it.

 And the imbalance between the first world financial indulgence and third world needs is crying out. Proverbs 21:13 ‘If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered’

 The Face of Poverty;  Noma, a devastating condition affecting children mainly between 2-3 years in the poorest countries of the world. Poor nutrition, lack of vaccination and poor oral hygiene (lack of education) and a small brake in the oral mucosa (lining of the mouth), no antibiotics sets the scene for a wildfire infection in the face by the normal oral organisms, that we all harbour in our mouths, and will cause 90% of these children affected to die in the acute face. Only 10% will survive and live with the sequelae of this destructive infection. And half of them will be left with severe ankyloses (jaws fused together) making talking and eating a daily challenge. Totally preventable when poverty is relieved.

‘Whoever is kind to the needy honours God’                                            Proverbs 14:31                                 

 “I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important,you did it for Me!”                                            The words of Christ in Matthew 25:40

 

     ‘What greater act of kindness than to add value to someone’s life’

 

 The recent documentary filmed mainly on the M/V Africa Mercy forced me to think about the difference in the needs of the wealthy western individual (cosmetic surgery in Dublin) and the needy third world individual (reconstructive procedures in West Africa).

The most well known South African and world renowned plastic surgeon Jack Penn wrote a book THE RIGHT TO LOOK HUMAN. McGraw-Hill Book Co., Johannesburg, New York, 1974.  To look normal, to look human makes you acceptable to other humans, makes you feel part of them, part of the society you are living in, ads to your self-respect.

So often people are, or at least feel, alienated, even ostracized when they have, especially facial abnormalities. When patients present with these gross facial abnormalities in Africa they will often not look you in the eyes because they do not want to see you reaction when you see him/her for the first time – they do not want to see the shock on your face. And they will do anything to hide their abnormality. In Africa I have seen patients covering their faces (like the Noma patient above) and often when they come to the ship for help we have great difficulty in persuading them to open up so we can assess them and see if we can help.

In the first world peoples’ ‘abnormalities’ are usually much more subtle but their experience of being acceptable or not acceptable to their society as real. But sadly a society shaped by the media on the false perceptions and pretences of the ideal body, the ideal appearance we should all strive for, creating the Idol of the Ideal that will supposedly make us happy. And people spend billions in worshipping this Idol.

But before I get too cynical. I can’t help wondering what then is the difference between someone with large keloids (overgrown scar tissue of the earlobes following ear piercing for ear rings) in Africa seeking help:

And someone with an obvious and eye-catching abnormal facial feature eg very prominent nose, in the affluent western society seeking help:

 I would not think that either of these patients are worshippers of the Idol of the Ideal but merely wants to look normal, human, not having heads turning and see people’s eyes fixing on their abnormal features. Or for that matter even more subtle, someone with signs of pre mature aging of the face and cares about his/her appearance in no different way than when we care about what we wear, to look our best - far from being obsessed with one’s looks. Self respect and not being obsessed with self, idolatry.

The real difference between these two patients who both long in their hearts to look normal, acceptable,  is the choice to have something done. Most often this is determined by their financial ability, the circumstances that they grow up in, the environment that they live in that will allow them a choice. In the first world people can see a surgeon whenever they like, and even if they have to save for a while or take a loan, will have the means to pay for what they want. In the third world and West Africa where I work, up to 80% of the population has no possibility of seeing a surgeon and even less, have the means to pay for it.

In their desperation they will seek help outside of themselves, if not, Devine help. The less self sufficient an individual is, by nature, the more spiritual he will be. He might pray for help, he might seek for someone/thing bigger than himself to help. The crazy thing is he may find it! Amos 4:6 "I was the One who brought famine to all your cities, yet you did not come back to Me.” Famine, sickness, war; suffering is the punishment, the curse on sin but very important also to bring us back to God. (Ezekiel 14: 21’ This is what the Sovereign LORD is saying: "I will send my four worst punishments - war, famine, wild animals and disease) If we as humans can’t help ourselves we will look further to whoever can. The greater the suffering the more desperate the seeking. And when we start seeking in the right places we will find our heart’s yearning. Jeremiah 29:13 ‘You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart.’ In our seeking for personal help we might find the answer to the true yearning of our hearts – God Himself.

Sadly, sadly, sadly the self sufficient whose circumstances allows them and gives them the ability to make their own choices without regard, without any fear of the eternal God think they are better off. In the blessing of prosperity they have lost the blessing of suffering through their own heart’s choices. Because it is still going relatively well with western world communities they are forgetting about their Creator God. Deuteronomy  8: 11 ‘Be careful that you do not forget the LORD your God …  12 …when you eat and are satisfied, when you built fine houses and settle down … 14 … your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God … 17 You may say to yourself “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me” 19 If you ever forget the LORD your God, I (God) will testify against you and you will surely be destroyed’. Prosperity is a blessing from God and to be enjoyed and shared in the fear of God. But when prosperity alienates us from God it becomes a curse without us realising it.

As spiritual beings we need our hearts to be filled; either by the Truth of God or with what the world has to offer. The test is to look at one’s life, assess one’s sense of fulfilment, sense of purpose, one’s deep and real needs, and Who to trust in what is to come. Peace and content in a quiet heart has the final say.

‘Men may be drowned in seas of prosperity as well as in rivers of affliction’. Charles Spurgeon.

So it is not where we live, what our circumstances might be, but how we decide to live our lives; To love our God and love our neighbour – the strange thing is that the closer to God the more we will love our neighbour, it just happens as He imparts His heart unto us. Or we can live for ourselves, care for ourselves while all is still going well. 

‘As men are not able to fight against death, misery, ignorance, they have taken it into their heads, in order to be happy, not to think of them at all.’  Blaise Pascal (1623–1662), French mathematician and philosopher.

My prayer is that we all will seek Him and find Him, serve Him, serve humanity with an open hand and heart. Relieve God’s pain in this world.

 From here I go back to Amsterdam for a week, then Dublin and 21^st August to the M/V Africa Mercy in Benin. Will be home mid October. This is a long stretch without my family. I am so thankful to know that so many of you are praying for us. At times my call threatens to crush me and my strength is you prayers and my intimacy with God. My hope in the One I believe and trust. Isaiah 40:31 ‘but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint’

Blessings in His love for us

Tertius 

 

‘It is the work that God does through us that counts, not what we do for Him’ Andrew Murray

 

Tertius Venter

To love Him

Obey Him, enjoy Him

Forever

tertius@torquetalk.nl

Web: www.torquetalk.nl  

Blog: http://bzg7.torquetalk.nl